Curse

Str0b0 · Apr 17, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchdoctor Avignon

I actually disagree with you here. This doesn't shift power...It distributes power. It does what the game was designed for...TEAMWORK. If the nerf did come true and SS necro's were in essence a "godly shutdown player"...It would require more than another 55 monk to kill groups. Like you said, Ranger/Warriors with enemy fleeing attacks. I don't see how this is a problem. You creating a fix that brings more characters into the fold.

On a similar note...this isn't a game where your only allowed one player. If SS Necro's are able to use a spell that makes the game exploitable, then make one yourself.

This is the most balanced game I've ever played. There will never be true equality because this is far to complex a game that DOESN'T require a subscription. People will find a way no matter how hard you try to snuff it out. So I completely agree w/ everyone who has pointed out that another nerf will only create another loop-hole somewhere else. That's the genius of this game. It's constantly being thought about. There must be a little shop somwhere with people just sitting around thinking up the next great thing.

Just my 2Cents.

Agreed but the point I really wanted to make is that unlike other shutdowns where you might shut down their ability to use energy based skills and yet they can still attack you with standard attacks. SS would completely shut the enemy group down. Basically what you end up with is a bunch of scared little rabbits and one invincible group mowing them down. Granted it opens up the groups for more characters to participate, I personally think Hunter's Shot would be ownage if it turned into a shut down skill, but it doesn't change the fact that SS would still be overpowered by most people's definition.

Ira Blinks · Apr 18, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

erm... some people just dont get it...
DOT got nothing to do with conditions. Poison is just a simplest example for people to understand, nothing more. DOT is simply sum of all damage dealt over certain timeframe. How exactly it is being dealt is highly irrelevant.
DOT spell is simply a spell that does damage more than once over fixed period of time... THATS IT! PERIOD! It got nothing to do with how it is being triggered and who deals the damage and wherever it is hex or not. Stop making up lame definitions to suit your point of view people!

Skarjak · Apr 18, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Actually sorry to burst your bubble but in most gaming communities, DOT is a type of skill wich does a certain amount of damage every time it is triggered over a certain period of time (i.e:degeneration). That's the way it is in most forums, so I doubt people are gonna change the meaning of an expression just for this forum.

Here's the way it is in most forums:

Total damage - no need for a definition
DOT (damage over time) - The equivalent of guild wars' degeneration
DPS - Damage per second

Ira Blinks · Apr 18, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarjak

Actually sorry to burst your bubble but in most gaming communities, DOT is a type of skill wich does a certain amount of damage every time it is triggered over a certain period of time (i.e:degeneration). That's the way it is in most forums, so I doubt people are gonna change the meaning of an expression just for this forum.

Here's the way it is in most forums:

Total damage - no need for a definition
DOT (damage over time) - The equivalent of guild wars' degeneration
DPS - Damage per second

Total damage "doesnt need" definition because you dont have one. DOT is a total damage and it is not equivalent to degeneration, it is superset of degeneration. This is the way it is everywhere (except apparently this forum).
And if anyone else tells me that DOT is degen, im gonna find where he lives and smash his face against his monitor.

Lord Iowerth · Apr 18, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

DOT is degen ....

*runs and hides*

Jagflame · Apr 18, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Well, degen is one type of DoT...

Although the literal interpretation of someone who is not familiar with rpgs would be that damage over time would refer to the total damage taken in a set period of time, that's not the case. At least not in Guild Wars.

The correct use of "Damage over Time" is either degeneration (poison, bleeding, etc) or repeated damage in small discontinuous portions, usually each second, for a certain amount of time.

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Total damage "doesnt need" definition because you dont have one. DOT is a total damage and it is not equivalent to degeneration, it is superset of degeneration. This is the way it is everywhere (except apparently this forum).
And if anyone else tells me that DOT is degen, im gonna find where he lives and smash his face against his monitor.

You know being confrontational doesnt lend well to your arguements because people will tend to ignore your valid points and just point out how much of an asshole you are being.

Jagflame · Apr 18, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You know being confrontational doesnt lend well to your arguements because people will tend to ignore your valid points and just point out how much of an asshole you are being.

That is exactly the way I've been feeling this entire thread. Ira, all I get out of half of your posts is, "I don't care, I'm right and you're wrong."

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

You can't argue with someone who knows they are right. That's yet another universal truth. The best thing you can do is try to mitigate the damage that could potentially be done by someone who "knows they are right" misinforming those who don't know better than to know that this "infallible" person is not right. Keep explaining your positions. Counter calmly and rationally and offer examples and proofs and eventually people will start soaking some of it up. You aren't going to convince Ira of the fallacy of their arguments. It wouldn't matter if God himself came down and said."Hey you're wrong. Stop being a jackass" Ira would still not concede the point.

Matsumi · Apr 18, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Total damage "doesnt need" definition because you dont have one. DOT is a total damage and it is not equivalent to degeneration, it is superset of degeneration. This is the way it is everywhere (except apparently this forum).
And if anyone else tells me that DOT is degen, im gonna find where he lives and smash his face against his monitor.

I don't know how it can be explained any further really. Some other things I thought of would be to try other games and see what types of spells are concidered DoT spells/skills, and which are DD spells, or AoE spells, etc. Has anyone ever played Evercrack (Everquest)? Try starting up a wizard or a magician in that game, and tell people you are a DoT AoE specialist with your elemental damage AoE spells... you'd probably get laughed at quite a bit and a few people might be nice enough to inform you that what your using isn't a DoT in fact. Heck, even try playing WoW and tell them what a DoT is, and that it doesn't mean degen (or doesn't need definition as you state) or small bits of damage each second over a period of time. You would get the same response probably, although I'm sure quite a few people that didn't know what it was either, would be siding with you for a while, until informed more about types of damage associated with rpg's and what they're refering to. The proof has already been put up there numerous times that it means degen, but it seems like you're not willing to even look at that. Instead, just taking the literal sense of the term and clearly not understanding the rest of it as even applying. Like I've said before, try researching it yourself and how it is categorized, then it won't sound like I'm the one saying it to you, or making up definitions. They were already pre-defined terms that were categorized by other games, along with this one. They have stuck to these definitions throughout time in rpg games.

Kind of reminds me of somebody covering their ears, and saying "nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah. Stop talking to me or I'll smash your face in!" when all you're really trying to do is inform them about something that would only benefit them in the long run. If it's concidered insulting because that person thinks I'm trying to sound better then they are, it's the complete opposite. Knowledge isn't meant to harm anyone, but I guess some people will continue to kick and scream when they insist they're right all the time. When you start to realize that you don't know everything, is when the real learning begins imo.

As far as nerfing SS or Barrage? Why bother, they clearly don't fall into these categories from what guildwiki says, and that's why they were left out. Even if you wanted to nerf SS or Barrage, as mentioned numerous times in here, what would be the point? To have to go after other conditional hexes that also fall into the category of SS? Or other single skills that offer multiple attacks from one attack? Doesn't make sense. Why would SS or Barrage be an elite skill then? If you took out the AoE consequences of SS you would just have a different form of empathy. If you took out the ability to attack up to 6 targets with arrows, you might as well just have punishing shot or something similar.

batou · Apr 18, 2006, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Damage over time, abbreviated DoT, is a term commonly used to describe skills that distribute damage to their target over a period time, rather than all at once.

There are two types of damage over time:

* Repeated damage in small discontinuous portions, usually each second, for a certain amount of time, as caused by Balthazar's Aura, Chaos Storm, Eruption and many other spells, especially AoE spells.
* Continuous health degeneration, such as inflicted by Conjure Phantasm or conditions like bleeding and burning, expressed as arrows pointing left on the health bar. Note that technically the game does not consider health degeneration as damage.

An important consequence of the difference between these two is that in the former case, each portion of damage counts individually, so protective spells like Shielding Hands or armor that "reduces damage" will reduce each small portion. These portions will also trigger spells which activate upon taking damage, such as Healing Seed or Balthazar's Spirit, but continuous health degeneration will not trigger an effect at all.

When people say "damage over time" they may mean both types or only one of the two.

^^guildwiki article

strcpy · Apr 18, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Does it really matter? Anet didn't say they wanted to nerf DoT, AoE DOT, or any of the things being argued about in the definition (in fact, thier claim is it didn't nerf them at all). Thier claim was that they wanted to bring PvE closer to PvP - no one (well, decent players at least) stands in a firestorm or next to someone with Balth's Aura so the mobs no longer do. Arguing over if SS is AoE DoT or not is fine, but it is irrelevant on the idea if those skills will get an AI nerf.

Given that Barrage, SS, Empathy, Backfire, and a whole host of spells will eventaully get an "AI update" (as us smiters and fire eles were told to call it when it first occured). At the rate SS is used right now it probably has a similar priority as the old things like firestorm - that is expect it before long. Personally I expect a full "Hex" AI update - have a damage causing hex cast on the mob and it quits attacking (stopping SS, Empathy, Backfire and others as PvE killers all in one go). As I said before, having these things work they way they do flies in the face of what Anet said - they will get nerfage sometime. I suspect thier only real saving grace for now is too busy on the Factions release (unless, of course, it ends up being part of it).

Viruzzz · Apr 18, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Viruzzz, although I agree that SS and MoP are not DoT, I don't agree with your whole post. They are not DoT because their damage is not consistant and always depends on the target's action.

But DoT can definitly be healed. DoT that causes degeneration is negated or altered by regeneration. DoT that causes consistant damage (such as fire storm) can be altered or negated by spells such as reversal of fortune and healing hands.

DoT damage can not be altered. if you cast healing breee, mending or use troll unguent it will not do anything to the damage, it will only apply its own "negative damage", like healing hands and healing seed, it does not negate the damage done, it only heals some of it back when triggered.

arcanemacabre · Apr 18, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Most of the time, people that "cry nerf" are people that would benefit from it. If they like playing mesmer and warriors have some skill that everyone wants, the mesmer gets jealous and says the warrior's skill should be nerfed. That's the way it goes.

You might not agree with it, even though you know it's true.

Thing is, that would be normal logic if people didn't have the opportunity to try out an 'overpowerd' build of their choice already. If said Mesmer wanted said Warrior skill, all they have to do is roll a Warrior. Simple as that.

I don't see why people would complain about skills like SS and Barrage just simply because their characters don't have them. Belive it or not (or simply check out my other posts), I have a necro, and my wife (whom I play with on a daily basis), has a ranger. I have SS, she has Barrage.

*GASP*

Does that mean that my saying that we need better AI that can properly defend against these two skills is complete hypocrisy? It could mean that I like to have fun in PvE, and it's hard to when the AI just grabs it's ankles and says "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I say it again you can't make any AI changes that will make SS less powerful. See my above posts for why.

madman420 · Apr 18, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I've read through almost all of this thread and noticed that no one has mentioned a very important point in this argument. SS and Barrage are ELITE skills. Almost all of the skills the were affected by the AoE nerf are NOT elite. The whole reason why you are only allowed to pack one elite skill at a time is because they are decidedly more powerful than the rest of the skills. The OP's original complaint seems to be that SS and Barrage are more powerful than firestorm and meteor shower, which they should be, as firestorm and meteor shower are not elite.

Viruzzz · Apr 18, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by madman420

I've read through almost all of this thread and noticed that no one has mentioned a very important point in this argument. SS and Barrage are ELITE skills. Almost all of the skills the were affected by the AoE nerf are NOT elite. The whole reason why you are only allowed to pack one elite skill at a time is because they are decidedly more powerful than the rest of the skills. The OP's original complaint seems to be that SS and Barrage are more powerful than firestorm and meteor shower, which they should be, as firestorm and meteor shower are not elite.

thats not a very good point. if anything monsters would have more reason to run from a more dangerous skill.

also, you can't really use that argument because SS is really the only elite skill that has any kind of continous AoE effect, anything else is mostly high damage single attack, so if there are no other elite skills that work like it you can't generalise.

also there are elite skills because some of them are simply too powerfull compared with other elites, and having 2 on your bar should not be possible. or some elites are simply better versions of an allready existing skill.

best example of this would be Defy pain and Endure Pain, both give the exact same amount of health at same strength level, and the same duration too if i remember correctly, the only difference is that Defy pain gives an additional 20 armor for the duration of the skill.

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

SS CANNOT BE NERFED! THE ONLY VIABLE OPTIONS WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

Jagflame · Apr 18, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Actually madman, that is a good arguement.

Quote:

thats not a very good point. if anything monsters would have more reason to run from a more dangerous skill.

He's not saying that. He's saying SS should be better than spells like firestorm and meteor shower because it is elite whereas the others are not. Whether or not monsters would logically run from it has nothing to do with it, it only has to do with whether or not it should be nerfed.

Quote:

also, you can't really use that argument because SS is really the only elite skill that has any kind of continous AoE effect, anything else is mostly high damage single attack, so if there are no other elite skills that work like it you can't generalise.

By that same token you can't generalize and say it has to.

Quote:

or some elites are simply better versions of an allready existing skill.

Along with Defy Pain and Endure Pain, I think a very good example would be Emapthy and Spiteful Spirit. This is quite common knowledge and I don't see what point you're making torwards your arguement.

Theos · Apr 18, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

It can be nerfed, but I'd much prefer to see aatxe with Chaos Fingers XD. To nerf SS add, gasp!, diversity to mobs. Shatter Hex mesmer in ever mob to nerf SS.